"(...) The time has come (...) for women to acquire influence in the world,
Paul VI. Message to women
a weight, a power never before achieved.
(...) Women from all over the universe, Christians or non-believers,
to whom your life is entrusted at this grave moment in history,
it is up to you to save the peace of the world."
Although it may seem so, what you have just read is not an excerpt from any feminist manifesto, but part of the message addressed by Pope St. Paul VI "To women." on December 8, 1965, at the closing of the Second Vatican Council. And it is one of the favorite messages of Flaminia Giovanelli, our protagonist today. For her, these brief lines brought the great novelty of taking into account the single, non-religious and non-consecrated women of our world, of which she is a part.
Committed to the Church since her earliest youth, Flaminia was born in Rome on May 24, 1948, and was the first lay woman to hold a position of responsibility in the Church, when Benedict XVI appointed her in 2010 as Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, a position she later held also in the current Dicastery for the Service of Integral Human Development.
She is fluent in Spanish, French and English, speaks her native Italian and has some knowledge of Portuguese. She has a degree in Political Science and a Diploma in Library Science. Pontifical Gregorian University and, as a teenager, she participated in Catholic reflection groups. But she assures that it was the example of her parents, who naturally put into practice the most fundamental principles of the social doctrine of the church, that marked her.
Flaminia is elegant, discreet and prudent, especially welcoming and cheerful, intelligent and kind. Small and slim, she is able to comment on the latest news of the international agenda while cooking delicious "Roman artichokes" with her mother's recipe. She has a weakness for felines, especially her silver-gray cat "Cesare", the same color as her hair, which together with the signs of expression on her face are the only thing that give you an inkling of her official age. Because Flaminia's true age is told by the sparkle in her eyes, her contagious laughter, her clean sense of humor, her energy so overflowing that she continues to move around the "Eternal City" on her white bicycle with basket and her presence in a thousand and one activities that keep her up to date researching, writing and giving her testimony wherever she is required, but above all, helping with all her strength the development of girls, young women and women in Mozambique through education and professional training.
What was the young Flaminia who arrived at the Vatican almost 50 years ago like?
-I entered the Vatican in 1974 at the age of 26. I belonged to a family with an international background. I had studied in Brussels and spoke French, English and Spanish, because I have family in Colombia and had spent some time there. I was fortunate to live in a Christian society. My parents were believers, they went to mass and did not belong to any particular Catholic group. Family is very important. In my home, helping the underprivileged was the norm. My mother was a Vincentian volunteer and in Brussels we also participated in an association to help the families of Italian miners. This social commitment in my family was the norm.
That young Flaminia had that "religious spirit" of which the Pope Benedict XVI. I had many defects, like the ones I have now (laughs), but also values such as a sense of duty and responsibility towards commitments. I was cheerful and a good girl. I am the second of two siblings. My parents were married on April 14, 1940, and my father enlisted on June 2 when Italy entered World War II. He left and came back after six years, including being a prisoner in India. I was very close to my parents, especially my father who was very particular, cheerful, cultured and with an extraordinary sense of humor. He was an international civil servant at the Ministry of Industry and Trade. It was the beginning of the ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community) and he was invited to work in Brussels and traveled a lot between Luxembourg, Paris and Geneva. He passed away very young when I was 19 years old so he did not see me at the Vatican. My mother did, she didn't say anything, but she liked the ceremonies at St. Peter's very much.
But I never looked for a Church job, it was offered to me. I had finished my studies and I was teaching French in some schools and I was also part of a group of young friends, we were talking about religion and our assistant was Monsignor Lanza di Montezemolo, at that time the Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, who needed a documentalist. And so I started in the library.
And many years later, I was appointed Undersecretary. But do you know what? I was surprised by the surprise of my appointment, because the circumstances were natural, even though it was not normal. I was the only one working in that office for so many years and there was a change of president and secretary, so it was normal to take someone from the curia at that time. You don't know how many messages I received! I have them saved. So that's how I perceived that there was something unusual, something strange. I mean, I could see that the will was there, but it was not easy, and it was easier to accept a person who was already inside and already old as I was, who at that time was over 60 years old....
During my years of service in Justice and Peace before and after in the Dicastery for the Service of Integral Human Development I have put into practice something that I believe is very womanly and that is the ability to welcome people with real affection and to make people feel comfortable.
Women's leadership in the Church
Do you think that the issue of women in the church will cease to be of interest when there are more women, especially lay women, in leadership positions?
-I have never been one to force things. But I do like to look back, to contemplate and understand better. When I was young I thought my life was going to be like my mother's or the women of that time. But it wasn't. And then looking back I did understand that there was a plan of God, that it was different. And so with everything: I think you have to go forward and then look back to see what happened and how things have gone in the Church for women. After so many years of service in the church, I can say that I have seen many changes and that more things are going to change in a framework that is becoming more and more clear.
But doesn't it happen a bit in the Church, as in society, that women become "under-secretaries" or "vice-presidents" but almost never become directors?
-In the Vatican, we women have already become directors! As for the administrative side, the Franciscan sister Raffaela Petrini (15/1/1969) was appointed in 2021 as Secretary General of the GovernatoratoThe Vatican, the highest position of responsibility given to a woman in the Vatican. And it is a very large body, with more than 2,000 people, mostly men and lay people and she manages very well. And in the Dicastery for the Service of Integral Human Development the Secretary is Sister Alessandra Smerilli (14/11/1974).
"In the Church there are two types of women, the institutional and the vindictive. I consider myself more of a reformer and someone who trusts in the path of history."
And why are more women religious than lay women appointed?
-Many times when these positions are offered, people do not accept them. And if they have to come from abroad, things get more complicated. Maybe that's why there are so many Italians in the curia. Even now that the salary is better than when I started working, the reality is that what is asked for is a lot, a lot of dedication, they ask for languages, theology....
But it also has to do with studies. In my time it was very difficult to study theology. Now there are more women theologians, but well, I think that some time has to pass because some of those who study theology today are "a bit dangerous", they are the ones who want more radical changes, more vindictive. And of course this is not accepted by the Vatican and by many men. It will take some time for these changes to take place.
What is there in what these women are claiming that is fair to claim and what is beyond what is reasonably claimable?
-I don't dare to judge them, I guess I'm not that vindictive, even if I admit that sometimes I thank those who are vindictive. I don't judge what is fair and what is not fair. But what is clear is that we live in an institution and working in an institution with this spirit is a bit difficult. It seems that in the Church there are two types of women, the institutional ones and the vindictive ones. I consider myself more of a reformist and someone who trusts in the march of history and that certain tensions will adjust with the passage of time.
"People are outraged by what's going on in Iran, or in Afghanistan, but they're not outraged enough, they're not outraged enough."
Flaminia Giovanelli
The last Popes and "the woman question".
Flaminia, you have met and worked with several of the recent Popes, from Paul VI to Francis. Tell us about each one and highlight the most significant contribution each has made to women's issues.
-I believe that more than "the question of women" today we should deal with the question of "the relationship between women and men" because by dealing only with the question of women we will not find the solution and it is urgent because among young people and with so much technology there is the risk of forgetting the basic relationship between men and women. And in this the Church has much to contribute, with examples of collaboration in perfect cooperation, as between St. Francis and St. Clare. In the Middle Ages there were many monasteries where there were women and men together, and most of the time the abbess was the woman. Something similar happens today with missionaries, men and women working together.
As for the Popes and even though I did not work with John XXIIAnd let me tell you about him only that his encyclical Pacem in terris is essential in terms of human rights and the vision of justice and peace. But, in addition, he considered the "fourth sign of the times" the appearance of women on the public scene, something that occurs when women begin to study in a habitual and not exceptional way.
From Paul VII would emphasize that he was a great intellectual. The Pope of the Second Vatican Council and of the Populorum proressioThis was essential for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, but it also meant that the Church began to be "up to date" because everything that this encyclical deals with is 100% current. He began the Messages for the World Day of Peace that were presented at the end of the year and that expressed the desire to put on the table the essential themes that would be worked on the following year. I already knew him as an old man and although he was not very much given to crowds in short distances he was affectionate, very warm. He wrote his message "To women." where he speaks of unmarried laywomen, which is my case. essential because sometimes it seems that only the woman is conceived as either a nun or a wife.
John Paul I He was the one who began to speak in the "first person", abandoning the capital plural, and that made a big difference.
Juan Palo II was vitality, life, enthusiasm, with an explosive faith. Generations of young people were attracted by his charisma. We worked a lot with him on such important social encyclicals as: Solicitudo res socialis o Centesimus annus and with him the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church was produced. On the question of women, of course, he emphasizes his Mulieris dignitatemand it is he who raises "the question of women"; and also his letter to Gertrude Mongella, Secretary General of the 4th United Nations International Conference on Women in Beijing.
Benedict XVI was the Pope of the Caritas in veritateWe have worked a lot in our Pontifical Council and then in the Dicastery for the Service of Integral Human Development. In the curia we loved him very much, he knew us and recognized the work we were doing and he was very affectionate.
Pope FrancisThe most appointments of women have been made by the company. In an interesting interview he gave to "America" magazine speaks of women and the Church as something that needs to be further developed, but centered on three ministries: the petrinoThe ordained and the administrative ministry. But strongly emphasizing that the Church is a woman and that it is the "Marian Principle" that inspires everything.
The gender debate
Do you think we in the Church have enough training to differentiate between gender equality, gender ideology and sexual identity?
-Human rights are born of Christianity because it is in the Gospel and with Jesus that women and all people are treated as children of the same father, with the same dignity. People are scandalized by what is happening in Iran, or in Afghanistan, but they are not scandalized enough, they are not indignant enough. It is urgent.
It is very disconcerting that not all religions respect human rights.
On gender, it is Christians working in international organizations who have to deal with this issue the most. When the Holy See takes the floor on these things, it explains it in a very long and complicated way. And the fact is that they used to talk about sex, but at a certain point they talk about "gender" and it seems like a joke, but the only one who talks about sex today is the Church. The solution is to use the word gender and specify every time we refer to the difference between the two sexes and say that we work for equality between men and women and not say gender equality. Neither we nor our cooperation agencies will ever discriminate against anyone because of these issues. And the essential issue is that in developing countries everything goes through women and that is why women's education is the main element for development. Social life, commerce and of course the family are in the hands of women and that is what the Church should care about, educating women and protecting them.
I am very involved in an organization that helps in Mozambique and I received a message the other day from a girl who had been a guest at our O Viveiro Center until the end of high school and she was a success story. She said "I am a woman with a nursing background, I have a daughter and I have a husband, he is a good husband and we respect each other" And I really liked that. I think that's the future, to have more and more respectful marital relationships and that the woman doesn't have to carry everything by herself. That is the way forward.
"It sounds like a joke, but the only one talking about sex today is the Church."
Flaminia Giovanelli
